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Front End suggestions with PICTURES
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Author:  TheHoneyBadger [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Hey guys, I'm looking to improve/dampening my front end by welding in more support or changing the whole front end all together. I have some ideas and would appreciate some feedback. Just some background, when I got this rail it had 4 different layers of powdercoat and was a mess. I wirebrushed the whole thing to bare metal and found a few cracks. We fixed those up by both welding the small ones, adding gussets and sheathing with square tube. We also added support along the sides and front. I primed and rolled the paint. Everything turned out excellent.

It's been a few months and I've taken it out on a few trips through the desert. I've noticed some small cracks forming along the front tube running to the balljoint front beam. I have no problem grinding, cutting the new paint and redoing it but I'm wondering what I can do to strengthen it for the future.

I'm not much of a sand person and really prefer the hard packed desert trails. While I was rebuilding the frame I installed new tie rods, ball joints and put in new shocks. The front end is stiff as hell and slams down pretty hard when whoops pop out of nowhere. So I'd like to soften in.

I'm wondering what my options are. I'd really like to install a long travel but honestly have no idea how it all works. I just saw a pic yesterday of a guy who ditched the whole beam and installed control arms on the side and had shocks welded to the frame. I'll try finding the pic.

Thanks for taking the time to read and I appreciate any and all feedback.
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Author:  Huey [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
You need X-bracing in the front like this -----> http://www.v-dubstore.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/frame%200031.jpg
Author:  reno2165 [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
I would ditch the ball joint beam in favor of a king pin beam with adjusters and longer arms, that will help the ride and while your changing it out you can do a frame over and tie it all back together.. that will strengthen it
Author:  2800passat [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Here goes my 3 cents lol. A frame needs to flex for climbing and to keep from cracking. For ex. , years ago when I quit welding up my cracks in an old a/c frame it started climbing like no body's business and it quit cracking in new places. Let the frame breath. lol I had 1 frame that would not pull out of it's own tracks. It turned out, the front torsion and frame was SO hard , that it would actually take a lot of the gripping weight OFF a back tire!
Author:  bigDsmith [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
How much longer arms would it take to make a difference in ride and or ground clearance?

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Author:  reno2165 [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
The longer the arm, the bigger the difference it will make, but anything over stock will be better.. height and ride can be set with the adjusters in the beam or coilovers, whichever route you decide to take 8)
Author:  bigDsmith [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Thanks Reno.

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Author:  PhillipM [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
2800passat wrote:
Here goes my 3 cents lol. A frame needs to flex for climbing and to keep from cracking. For ex. , years ago when I quit welding up my cracks in an old a/c frame it started climbing like no body's business and it quit cracking in new places. Let the frame breath. lol I had 1 frame that would not pull out of it's own tracks. It turned out, the front torsion and frame was SO hard , that it would actually take a lot of the gripping weight OFF a back tire!


Cracks are a symptom off too much localised stiffness and not enough overall frame stiffness, taking the weight off the back wheel is just a suspension issue, suspension works better with a stiffer frame than a flexing one.
Author:  UncleJerm76 [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Heres what I would do. Go with a narrower beam and for arms go both longer (for the travel) and wider (to make up the difference of the narrow beam). Wider arms will also allow you to tweak the steering for sharper turns without hitting the through rods. And coil-overs ...Im not partial - honest. :)


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Author:  UncleJerm76 [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
I forgot you asked for pictures...


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Attachments:
ImageUploadedByWoodsBuggy1391619809.128498.jpg
ImageUploadedByWoodsBuggy1391619809.128498.jpg [ 74.58 KiB | Viewed 9968 times ]
ImageUploadedByWoodsBuggy1391619771.632641.jpg
ImageUploadedByWoodsBuggy1391619771.632641.jpg [ 86.02 KiB | Viewed 9968 times ]
Author:  reno2165 [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Sharp buggy 8)
Author:  2800passat [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Hi Philip. My quote tab don't work. In our kind of riding a flexing frame in the front makes a NOTICABLE difference. I had an ol buggy named Prime Climb and it was magic. Transferred everything mechanical over to a new solid frame and it just did not have it. The Georgia Chain drivers visited Alabama and they enlightened me about it. There is an old legend around here named Smokey, with a 30 year old frame full of old cracks, but it went everywhere he pointed it. Busby misses his stolen Chenowoth so bad that he is almost suicidal. He said , the way that frame climbed, it cannot be replaced. And every new person has to believe this. A HARD FRAME PLUS A HARD FRONT SUSPENSION WILL LIFT SOME TRACTIVE GRIP OFF A REAR WHEEL. Some of us need to get an observer like they did me, and lay a rock under a front tire 1/2 way up a dirt hill, and then try to pull off. If dirt blows out from under the respective rear tire only , then they are too stiff. Or test it alone and put a tire on a small rise. When I quit welding up cracks and adding gussets, it quit cracking. Let a frame breath! lol Put a front tire on a cement block in the drive way. Austin's A arms won't even know the block is there!
Author:  MadMike [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
BULL SHIT. The chassis needs to be tight and the suspension needs to be loose(period). Anyone who has done anything racing will back that up. If your suspension is that F&$@ up, your not going anywhere anyway.
Flexible chassis my ass. Never have I heard of anything so retarded.
Author:  stillwell1 [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
I say keep the balljoint front end link pin you rebuild and it's sloppy after a few months
Author:  PhillipM [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Pretty much what Mike said, if your frame is so soft because you've stopped welding the cracks up, what it's doing is not 'flexing' what it's doing is permanently bending - that's going to throw the entire geometery out and fatigue the frame.
It stops the dampers working properly and it stops the springs working properly.

You will get a much better ride, handling and traction with a very stiff frame and soft suspension and damping, the softer the frame, the less suspension control you have and you need to go stiff with the damping to try to control the oscillations against the unsprung weight.
All the rest of that fluff is just anecdotal, like all the stuff I see about W/C's can climb because they lift the nose - it's bollocks, you're comparing different buggies with wildly different geometries and weight distributions - you can't compare them.
If you're having problems with lifting the front, fix the weight distribution or fix the rear trailing arm geometery.
I could plant the throttle in first gear with our rotary and it would lift the front AND the rear and keep itself balanced like that right to the rev limiter.

Our buggy has probably one of the stiffest frames on here, and if you take it out on a trail it rides better than a normal car does on tarmac. You can hit a half foot kerb at 70mph and barely feel it.
Stiff frame, soft front suspension and low friction in the joints and bushes does wonders.

I'll even put my money where my mouth is, you fetch the buggy over, let me stiffen and gusset the frame properly and reset the suspension to match, and if it doesn't ride, handle and grip better I won't charge you a penny for the work or parts and I'll pay the shipping for the buggy, both ways.
If it does, you owe me materials, a beer, and you pay yer own shipping.
Author:  2800passat [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
OK . LET'S ALL GO OUR SEPERATE WAYS ON THIS ONE. smooth HILLCLIMBS AND DIRT TRACKS MAY CALL FOR STIFFNESS. MOST FRAMES BARELY FLEX AND CLIMB GREAT AND THEIR OWNERS DON'T EVEN KNOW. IF I AIR UP THE FRONT A ARMS OF THE PASSAT BUGGY HIGH AND HARD IT WILL SLIP A GRIP. I DON'T ALWAYS CLIMB BIG HILLS, BUT WHEN I DO, I LET SOME AIR OUT OF THE FRONT AIR BAGS. STAY THIRSTY MY FRIENDS.DOS EQIS.
Author:  PhillipM [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Air in the bags is preload, not spring rate ;)
Author:  bigDsmith [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Lol...where is the popcorn. I love a dinner and a show.

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Author:  klu408 [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
They got your number DD..... Lol

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Author:  PhillipM [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
bigDsmith wrote:
Lol...where is the popcorn. I love a dinner and a show.


Sorry, only tea and crumpets over here.
Author:  2800passat [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
NOBODY HAS MY #. I WON'T ANSWER IT , ANYWAY! I OWE TOO MANY PEOPLE MONEY.PHILIP. I'LL TAKE A TRUCK LOAD OF DELICIOUS AND NUTRITIOUS STRONGBOW CIDER! LOL MAYBE A LIQUOR LADDEN LORY LEFT IT'S LANE AND LOST IT'S LOAD LOL
Author:  PhillipM [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Can't do Strongbow, but one of our customer cars was sponsored by Scrumpy Jack - there's cases of the damn stuff all over, that do?
Author:  Odyknuck [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Here is what I converted mine too. It was originally the typical Latest rage self contained front beam. I kept bending it and I decided I need something stronger for the weight of this car. And no it has nothing to do with my driving and that's my story and I'm sticking to it! :wink:

Right after I built the Buggy:
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Many, May Mods later:

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Author:  bige70chevy [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Odyknuck wrote:
Here is what I converted mine too. It was originally the typical Latest rage self contained front beam. I kept bending it and I decided I need something stronger for the weight of this car. And no it has nothing to do with my driving and that's my story and I'm sticking to it! :wink:

Right after I built the Buggy:
Image

Many, May Mods later:

Image

Image

Image

Image
Author:  gasman [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front End suggestions with PICTURES
Oh my it's another one of those threads,lol. :D :D :D . ( I miss nitromudder lmao). When you out flex your suspension then you start flexing your frame. Every frame I've had and seen with the top tube turned down to the front beam like yours has and will crack at the first upright support when you over extend the ability of your front suspension. With the added braces you put from the windshield down only made it worst for that top front bar by limiting the flex and made your front end stiffer and that's were your getting the harder feel from. The best fix I've seen is a combo of extending the top bar straight out and adding the bumper off it and "A " bracing down to the front beam and soften up your front suspension by adding more travel. Then again I'm not as smart as most but this IMO. Chad :mrgreen:
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