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 Post subject: Re: ky cookie cutter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:44 pm 
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dunebuggynut wrote:
bmoore wrote:
they do transfer weight forward, longer the arm the further you move your rear tires back :wink: therfore moving more of your rear weight forward


But you aren't moving weight to the front, you made the lever 3 inches longer. The weight of the tires is still rear weight regardless of where you place them since they are unsprung weight. You are confusing leverage with sprung weight. Moving the tires to the rear only makes the frontend harder to lift, not heavier. If you weigh a buggy & then bolt a piece of flat aluminum to the lugs then bolt the wheels to that 1 foot back & re-weigh it the front/rear weights should not change by more than a couple pounds from the aluminum.


Actually you didn't make the leaver longer you moved the fulcrum back "X" inches. The weight bias is measured at the tire and the pivots are just that, pivots. Look at the bearing house as the fulcrum the further back the fulcrum moves away from the lift the harder it is to lift. The lift in this case is the front end. The leaver is torque.
Think of the bikes that hill climb race. Are their rear trailing arms 2 foot longer than stock, yes they are. Why? Instead of lifting, from the center of the rear wheel to center of the front wheel, 5 foot it's now lifting 7 foot, way harder to do.

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 Post subject: Re: ky cookie cutter
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:55 pm 
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MadMike wrote:
dunebuggynut wrote:
bmoore wrote:
they do transfer weight forward, longer the arm the further you move your rear tires back :wink: therfore moving more of your rear weight forward


But you aren't moving weight to the front, you made the lever 3 inches longer. The weight of the tires is still rear weight regardless of where you place them since they are unsprung weight. You are confusing leverage with sprung weight. Moving the tires to the rear only makes the frontend harder to lift, not heavier. If you weigh a buggy & then bolt a piece of flat aluminum to the lugs then bolt the wheels to that 1 foot back & re-weigh it the front/rear weights should not change by more than a couple pounds from the aluminum.


Actually you didn't make the leaver longer you moved the fulcrum back "X" inches. The weight bias is measured at the tire and the pivots are just that, pivots. Look at the bearing house as the fulcrum the further back the fulcrum moves away from the lift the harder it is to lift. The lift in this case is the front end. The leaver is torque.
Think of the bikes that hill climb race. Are their rear trailing arms 2 foot longer than stock, yes they are. Why? Instead of lifting, from the center of the rear wheel to center of the front wheel, 5 foot it's now lifting 7 foot, way harder to do.


and just to point out those ( dont know if means anything or not ) but those dirt bike swing arms mount in the stock location just like the trailing arms on a buggy regardless of thier size/length

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 Post subject: Re: ky cookie cutter
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:53 am 
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MadMike wrote:
Actually you didn't make the leaver longer you moved the fulcrum back "X" inches. The weight bias is measured at the tire and the pivots are just that, pivots. Look at the bearing house as the fulcrum the further back the fulcrum moves away from the lift the harder it is to lift. The lift in this case is the front end. The leaver is torque.
Think of the bikes that hill climb race. Are their rear trailing arms 2 foot longer than stock, yes they are. Why? Instead of lifting, from the center of the rear wheel to center of the front wheel, 5 foot it's now lifting 7 foot, way harder to do.


I think we both said the same thing as far as lifting action from the rear tires to the front of the buggy but the bike analogy is perfect for this discussion. If the mounting point of the swingarm is dead center in the bike & it weighed 500 pounds & 250 was up front & 250 was in the rear & you extend the rear swingarm 2 feet the weight should still be 250 up front & 250 in the rear assuming nothing changed other than the length of the swingarm. I can see this in my head but I can't see how the front would get heavier, however the leverage would greatly increase.

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 Post subject: Re: ky cookie cutter
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:17 am 
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to me its like mentioned earlier about the 5th wheel semi and the sliding rear trailer axles,

the 5th wheel is thr pivot point (like the mount for rear trailing arms) and sliding the trailing axles backwards shift weight from the trailer axles to the truck ( longer rear trailing arms = more weight on the front )

also look at it like this if you have a buggy with stock trailing arms and you go grab the front bumper and pick it one handed with ease and then throw on a set of 3 in. longer arms nd it takes both hands to pick it up, to me that means the front end got heavier but thats just my way of looking at it :| 8)

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 Post subject: Re: ky cookie cutter
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:59 am 
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ridenrace6 wrote:
to me its like mentioned earlier about the 5th wheel semi and the sliding rear trailer axles,

the 5th wheel is thr pivot point (like the mount for rear trailing arms) and sliding the trailing axles backwards shift weight from the trailer axles to the truck ( longer rear trailing arms = more weight on the front )

also look at it like this if you have a buggy with stock trailing arms and you go grab the front bumper and pick it one handed with ease and then throw on a set of 3 in. longer arms nd it takes both hands to pick it up, to me that means the front end got heavier but thats just my way of looking at it :| 8)


This one is driving me crazy & I have an idea to do it in miniature with a postal scale when I get home next week.

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 Post subject: Re: ky cookie cutter
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:18 pm 
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You're not changing the weight, you're moving the fulcrum, your ratchet isn't any (much) heavier when you put a cheater bar on it, but it's easier to break a bolt loose. It's like a fat kid and a skinny kid on a teeter-totter, you can find a happy place for both of them if you move the plank. Your pivot point changes so your front to rear ratio changes, even though the weight itself doesn't change that much...I'll shut up now.

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I thought this thread was about cookies!????


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